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« Chesterton Muses On Determinism | Main | Inviting College Students In Roanoke To Christ The King Presbyterian Church »

February 02, 2007

Comments

His critique is against the oxymoronic modern notion that the only constant is change.

It's not a modern notion that Chesterton is referring to. His choice of words clearly harks back to Heraclitus, approximately 500 years before the birth of Christ:

"At best, there is only one thing, and that is a flux of everything and anything."
-- Chesterton

"All is flux, nothing stays still."
--Heraclitus

Not to sidetrack an otherwise interesting post, but what exactly in scripture do you think "rules out" creation through gradual change?

D,

That question leads us way off course for this thread.

Did you see my thread here?

https://mrdawntreader.com/the_dawn_treader/2007/01/how_should_we_i.html

Jeff, I responded to the hermeneutical question on the other thread. I think it's a little irresponsible to suggest that the only "orthodox" view of Gen. 1 is one that rules out change -- it's a terribly simplistic approach to the hermeneutics, even if we agree the relevant passage is a narrative and not allegorical.

Regardless, I think what Chesterton is getting at here isn't simple the notion of evolutionary change. It's the notion that evolutionary change = "gradual progress." The interesting thing is that both biological and social Darwinists don't really use that heuristic anymore. I'm not sure, then, that this has much to do with the challenges presented by contemporary scientistic Darwinism (Darwinism that rules out any role for God in the process of creation, which of course I agree is false).

"it's a little irresponsible to suggest that the only "orthodox" view of Gen. 1 is one that rules out change"

Change is fine. Long periods of time are fine. I didn't rule that out.

I ruled out evolution with a capital E ... I don't think it stands up on hermenuetical scrutiny. You have pointed out that there are others whom I have not read who have attempted to harmonize capital E evolution with all of the Biblical accounts of the origin of man. I'll keep reading.

"The interesting thing is that both biological and social Darwinists don't really use that heuristic anymore."

I'd like to hear how you reached that conclusion. James Herrick reached the opposite conclusion in his book, The Making Of The New Spirituality. I'd like to compare your argument to his (at a high level).

What do you mean by "evolution with a capital E?" I usually take that to mean "truly random and unguided by any intelligence." Then of course I'd agree with you that it can't be held by a Christian. If you simply mean "common descent from a single organism," I don't follow. There's an interesting exegetical question about the "kinds" in Gen. 1 -- there are a variety of ways to look at that, and even many conservative commentators (see C. John Collins' book "Faith and Science") suggest there's really nothing concrete to be made of the "kinds" -- to the extent the term has any identifiable meaning (which isn't clear) probably this is simply a description in ordinary phenomenological language of what a contemporary reader would observe -- kind of like saying the "sun rises and sets" -- and not a precise description of how God created. BTW, if you haven't read C. John Collins, I think you'd really like him -- solidly reformed, committed to a high view of scripture, and ID-friendly, not a theistic evolution guy really -- but with a somewhat different take on the Gen. 1 and 2 narratives than Hugh Ross.

The biggest issue, IMHO, is Gen. 2 and the creation of Adam and Eve -- here I might agree that it's very difficult not to find in scripture some break in the chain of common descent through "natural" means. The big hermeneutical question, though, is what level of "harmonizing" should be done. To say we need to "harmonize" presupposes that the sort of narrative Gen. 1 and 2 contain address concerns that are the same as modern scientific narratives. I'm not sure that's the case, and that kind of "harmonization" often leads to weird results -- like the Church's heliocentric views until after Galileo. (Another good book here BTW -- Westminster Seminary prof. Peter Enns' "Inspiration and Incarnation". Also check out Tim Keller of Redeemer Pres.'s comments here on "how do Gen. 1 and 2 relate": http://www.redeemer2.com/resources/index.cfm?fuseaction=media) Do you really want to say that a Westminster prof like Peter Enns or a guy like Tim Keller are outside of orthodoxy because they take a different hermeneutical view of the Gen. 1 narrative? (BTW, I don't know that either Enns or Keller would call themselves "theistic evolution" people -- it's kind of an unfortunate label anyway IMHO). Well, you can pop this over to the other thread and point to it if you want or whatever. Just wanted to point out that one thing I learned from studying this really intensely over the past year is that it isn't a simple, bipolar question. (You know how much I love simple, bipolar solutions!) There are a whole range of approaches in between literalism and allegorization and it's not clear that there's any one right approach.

I haven't seen Herrick's book. My sense in various things I've read is that most materialist Darwinists these days avoid notions like "progress" and adopt the sort of reductionist heuristic you were talking about in some of the other posts. "Progress" is a teleological notion that suggests there is a higher value towards which life is progressing. My sense is that most materialists would say we aren't "progressing," we just are. We're a brute fact of nature, and there's no sense looking for some sort of teleology in our evolutionary hitory or future. It's kind of a Neitzschian view of human nature. Usually they still suggest we should try to be good people (a la Richard Dawkins), but they can't really explain why. IOW this is even a more damaging worldview than the older "progress"-oriented view. But it also presents opportunities missiologically, because we can offer real hope in Christ. Whatever the facts are about the "is" of how God created us, those facts don't answer the "ought" or the "why" and they don't answer the powerful event of the cross. I just hate to see the opportunity to explain that get lost in the precise details of the "how."

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