Blogroll

Web Links

Sitemeter


W3 Counter


« Christ Centered, Gospel Driven, Kingdom Minded PCA Church in Roanoke, VA | Main | How Determinism Self Destructs Experientially »

January 30, 2007

Comments

"If my mental processes are totally determined, I am totally determined either to accept or to reject determinism."

This statement is false, and I'd suggest it undermines the rest of the argument you've made in this post.

Let's assume for a moment that mental processes are determined (i.e. for input X you will always get output Y). All that means is that if you apply stimulus X to my brain, you will get response Y. It says nothing about whether you will ever get stimulus X.

That's important, because we need to remember that X isn't a trivial thing, but a summation of everything that I have ever been aware of, plus a specific selection from everything that could possibly happen to me now. That's a little confusing, so let me give you an example.

It would be easy to think of 'X gives Y' for a car as pressing the gas pedal (X) speeds the car up (Y). Of course that's not really true - pressing the pedal (X) causes gas to flow into the combustion chamber, which in turn causes the car to accelerate (Y). But even that is only a small clarification, because we need to know all of the following and more:
*Have I started the engine? If not, X won't give Y
*Have I engaged a gear? If not, X won't give Y
*Have I fuelled the car? If not, X won't even give the intermediate step, let alone Y)
*Am I concurrently pressing the brake? If I am, then X will give the intermediate step but not Y
*Did I just ease up on the gas by more than I am now depressing it? If I did X won't give Y, it will just limit the deceleration of the car

I'm sure the list goes on. And that's the problem with the statement you quoted. Even if mental processes are totally determined, they are still dependent on inputs outside the mental system and outside the control of the mental system. A belief in determinism could conceivably be something that the brain is hard-wired with (though I'm not aware of evidence that it is), but even if it were that hard-wiring could be rewired based on inputs that cannot be predicted. And more likely it's not hard-wired, and a belief for or against it depends on what evidence and ideas are presented, when they are presented, and the state that everything that has ever happened to that brain before that point has left the brain in.

I should add that I'm not sure that the brain is deterministic in this manner; it's entirely possible that the brain operates to some extent at a quantum level, which is not known to be deterministic. I'd have to do a lot more reading to even be able to form a decent opinion on that.

Paul,

You haven't dealt with the argument ... determinists claim that belief in determinism is a rational belief ... yet determinism undercuts rationality.

Owen's argument is a separate argument. His argument is that determinism ... by definition ... says that the mind is a series of conditioned reflexes. That means your beliefs are conditioned reflexes. This means you hold beliefs regardless of their truth value. This, of course, applies equally to those who believe or reject determinism. On what basis, therefore, can the determinist argue that determinism is true?

Discussing the mind-numbing amount of inputs is to miss the argument altogether.

What do you mean by 'conditioned' reflexes?

"What do you mean by 'conditioned' reflexes?"

Automated responses.

Well a conditioned reflex isn't the same as an automated response - a conditioned reflex is essentially something you've been taught (or have taught yourself) to do, a la Pavlov's dogs. An automatic response is, I assume, outside the context of conditioned or unconditioned. So which is it that Owen really means?

I'm not trying to dodge the question, btw, but it's hard to answer such a moving target. While we're at it, could you define 'truth value' for me as well? I'm assuming you mean the rightness of an idea that is intrinsic in the idea itself, rather than an external perception of it?

Oh, I should add that I do think our beliefs are conditioned reflexes, to a large extent at least. A great number of the things I believe are a result of the conditioning provided by my parents. Would you disagree? Or do you think that we work out our beliefs from first principles each generation?

I am not sure I follow why the distinction between conditioned reflexes and automated responses is significant. Either way, you have no choice in your response ... whatsoever. That is the key distinction.

Truth is a relation in the same family as "greater than", "less than" and so forth. Truth is the relation between our belief and reality.

I believe our parents are heavily involved in our belief formation. But I would not characterize it as conditioned reflexes. Conditioned reflexes indicate no control. We all own and choose our beliefs ... we can't not do that. Many choose to believe what their parents believe ... some reject it ... but we all own that choice.

The more I try to formulate a response that you'll find useful, the tricky it gets to work with the parameters we have. This time the issue is "you have no choice in your response".

That got me to thinking what you mean by 'you'. It is, I think, perfectly consistent to think that the decisions kicked out at a neural level are what we perceive as choice. To say that they are not presupposes that there is a 'you' outside of you (!) that can exercise a different sort of choice. That may be true, but until you show that the choice I refer to is inferior to that level of choice you describe as an explanation for what we see, I'm not sure why we should accept that assumption.

Perhaps it would be useful for you to explain why choice has to be free. I don't mean as a semantic exercise (I think there's already been a debate here about whether a choice is a choice if it contains constraints), but why there must exist a 'free choice' that matches our perception of freedom in choice. A kind of platonic free choice, if you like. This would tie in with your assertion that truth exists in a reality that we interact with by perception, rather than being an artifact of that perception for example.

To be fair, I'll take the first step in answering your question using this idea - why isn't the ultimate, low-level deterministic action of the brain the way that we perceive truth? Perhaps we're actually flawless at perceiving truth somewhere in our deterministic brains, but other responses from elsewhere in the brain take that perception and bury it. I don't know if that's true, but I also don't know why it isn't.

On the tangent discussion - I think our beliefs start out very much as conditioned reflexes - certainly much of what I've believed has started out that way, and despite subsequent rationalizations after the fact it's amazing how much I believe is consistent with, or at least firmly rooted in, what I was first taught. I think the same is true of pretty much everyone. That doesn't mean that we can't change those beliefs (many if not most people do to some extent), but I think it's quite unusual for people to choose their beliefs as an active thing; instead they drag them around until something prompts them to question a belief.

The comments to this entry are closed.