The Dawn Treader

It was out in the open. Jeff is one of those wierdo Christians.One of the 80%, you mean? :) Or are you using "weirdo" Christians as a subgroup under a larger Christian banner?

"One of the 80%, you mean? :) Or are you using "weirdo" Christians as a subgroup under a larger Christian banner?"

One of those Christians who actually believes the Bible is true, believes that Jesus was the promised Messiah, believes that he was physically raised from the dead, believes there is one true God, believes the classic teaching of the doctrine of the trinity, believes that those who place their trust in Christ and Christ alone will spend eternity with him, and that those who don't, will stand alone before God to be judged. I believe hell is a real place and awaits those who chose to reject God's offer of eternal life.

Hmmm, Tom is that quote from you or do the quotation marks mean that it is from another source?

The Bible calls all those who profess to be Christians to go into the world and to preach the Gospel. The word gospel has "good news" or "promised news" as its root, so if you know something good, why wouldn't you desire to share it?

You probably then will steer the thread towards the fact that making money in real estate is good news to me, and I want to get your money...but in this case I reckon it's a bit different. The Christian view wants to share good news simply for the sake of it being good news. I don't want anything from you, per se, except to see you in heaven.

Oh, my twin 5 year olds are needing my attention, so we are off and running yet again...the perils of blogging before the kiddies' bedtime :)

G'nite y'all from sunny South
:)

I remember once when I was in college (yep, for an ex-cop I actually have a 4 yr degree!) I went to an InterVarsity dorm meeting. Some guy was talking about God's gift of eternal life that needs only to be accepted. To make his point he had a really nice college logo rugby shirt and he simply gave it to someone ... no strings attached (I wish it was me, but sadly it wasn't :)). That picture/story was a powerful motivator as I contemplated my relationship with the God of the universe.

Whenever I think that I should stand and "rebuke" or question/challenge God, I turn to Job and listen to God's discourse on "Where were you when I...?"

In my former life I was able to be the agent of wrath and of justice, and I fell into the trap of thinking that my discovery of wrongdoers would change the world...it became a vicious lie and an empty life as I sought to change the world through power.

Sorry, I'm going off here...but these make good conversation starters at Christmas parties...so Jeff, make sure that you finish the story!

:)

That sounds like a good gig...I wish I knew someone who would pay me to post!

:)

If you referred to me, it would take a lot more than that to offend me. Pretty thick skin here ...

Later.

As to the "free gift" of salvation, that's still the subject of much debate in Christian circles. It's primarily (thought not exclusively) a rift between Catholics and Protestants, concerning the relative importance of faith and works.

Unless you're arguing that I can simply decide to believe that Jesus is the risen son of God, keep right on a-sinnin' all the way to the grave, and still achieve salvation (and I don't know anyone who seriously argues this), then the gift of salvation is far from "free." As Jeff or any other devout Christian can tell you, living a Godly life -- not just talking the talk, but walking the walk -- is hard work, especially in this day and age. That's not what I call "free."

"Contrary to popular notion and even some mistaken theology, we cannot be good enough, we are adopted children."

Let me restate that clearer: We are not admitted based upon behavior, but rather we are adopted as children. If good behavior were the requirement, then all is lost because "no one is righteous, no not one."

I didn't think he would do it, but I forgot how cheap he is :)

its mostly meant to be gnetle teasing, but I do see these kinds of interactions through that lens. The way the post is written, you seem to have gone to this party with the purpose of trying to convert someone through arguments and conversation. I do think that can be anti-Christian.

If you are intent on covnersion, then you run the risk of looking at people as thing, as targets, as, pardon the expression, marks not as people. And that is both dangerous and contrary to Scripture. Not to mention ineffective. no one likes a hard sell, even when they buy. sooner or later, there is remorse.

Want to bring the word to people? help them. deal with them on a non-religious, personal basis for a long time. Show them, through your actions and the way you live your life, what Christ has done in your life. That's how you win converts that are actually meaningful. And that's how you prevent yourself form falling into the trap of looking at your fellow human beings as targets instead of people.

Kevin,

I appreciate the spirit of your comment.

"The way the post is written, you seem to have gone to this party with the purpose of trying to convert someone through arguments and conversation."

I look at life as if I am a traveler, who was hungry, and found free bread ... and I want to tell as many other hungry travelers where the bread is. My motivation is joy. I don't get anything out of the deal. I am not selling the bread, for it is not mine to sell.

The bottom line is that I have incredibly good news about life that I want to share ... especially to people who are hungry for good news. As it turns out, Jim was hungry.

"Show them, through your actions and the way you live your life, what Christ has done in your life."

Great advice. Words to live by.

"And that's how you prevent yourself form falling into the trap of looking at your fellow human beings as targets instead of people."

Good point. It is easy to fall into this trap, as if converting someone will earn God's love or an extra portion of blessings. First, God converts people, not Christians. We may play the role of messenger, but we never play the role of converter. Second, God tells us to simply bear witness to what he has done in our life. He does the rest.

If one's motivation for sharing good news is anything other than joy, then they could fall into the trap you are talking about.

We all like to pass along good news. It is in our nature. Don't you share good news with Tom the first chance you get? E.g. you hear that Christmas bonuses are going to be extra large this year ... you run down to Tom's cube with this great news. It is natural.

I am the same way. I love sharing good news with other people ... the offer of eternal life, a free gift, is wonderful news. Many don't realize it is free, and continue trying to earn their way into heaven ... something which is never taught in the Holy Scriptures.

Your point about living out the message of Christ is a good one. I simply think we need to do both: words and deeds. We live in a hurting world, one that needs hope and good news. Our actions and words can bring healing and comfort ... we can push back darkness all around us, like my dearly departed friend Clete did.

Tom,

As to the "free gift" of salvation, that's still the subject of much debate in Christian circles. It's primarily (thought not exclusively) a rift between Catholics and Protestants, concerning the relative importance of faith and works.

That's the popular version of the debate between protestants and Catholics. The actual debate is a much more subtle one about the nature of "justification" -- that is, the process by which we are made free of the effects of sin. For example, see The Chatechism of the Catholic Church, section 2010: Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

See also, Catechism, section 2020: Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

And also, Catechism section 2023: Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

Thus, at least in official doctrine, Catholics and Protestants agree that salvation is a gift of God, not earned by works. This, moreover, has historically been the position of Chrisitan orthodoxy, although Roman Catholicism arguably had drifted away from it at the time of the Reformation and has only made strides back towards it since Vatican II.

There remains, though, a subtle but significant difference in the Catholic and Protestant understanding of "justification." Catholic doctrine holds that We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God. Thus, the Roman Catholic view of justification is that, after conversion, man collaborates with God in the progress towards salvation. The Protestant view, generally, is that there is no such collaboration. Protestants make a much sharper distinction between "justification" -- the process by which we are declared fit for salvation -- and "sanctification" -- the process by which we grow in holiness and good works.

This difference on the issue of justification is also related to differences between Protestants and Catholics on the role of the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist, in salvation. Catholics believe the Mass (Eucharist) is a means by which we collaborate with God to receive his saving grace; Protestants generally believe the Eucharist is a memorial and not a means of grace.

It is very sad, in my view, that these differences continue to hinder common fellowship and outreach between Protestants (particularly some types of Evangelicals) and Roman Catholics (particularly some very conservative Catholics who disavow the reforms of Vatican II). For anyone interested in Evangelical-Catholic dialogue, I'd heartily recommend Mark Knoll's excellent study Is the Reformation Over, as well as the materials on the 1994 Evangelicals and Catholics Together statement at the First Things website.

Why do I spill all this? First, because I'm very interested in it and Jeff kindly provides this space to spill. :-) But more importantly, because I want to show that this "but Christians disagree about it being a gift" argument isn't really accurate and isn't a valid reason not to investigate the Gospel. All kinds of Protestants and all kinds of Catholics, despite our many real differences, nevertheless agree on an awful lot, including that salvation ultimately is a free gift.

Unless you're arguing that I can simply decide to believe that Jesus is the risen son of God, keep right on a-sinnin' all the way to the grave, and still achieve salvation (and I don't know anyone who seriously argues this), then the gift of salvation is far from "free."

Here I think you're view of what the "gift of salvation" comprises is far too limited. You of course are right that the "keep right on a-sinnin'" mentality is contrary to the Gospel. But that's because "salvation" isn't just an insurance policy that buys your way into heaven. Salvation is an all-encompassing process of transformation, a becoming the kind of person you were designed to be. Salvation also isn't simply an individual thing. The progress of salvation leads to a community of the saved living in perfect peace, joy, fulfillment and justice. The process of sanctification -- of becoming progressively more like Jesus -- enables and prepares us to experience that community. We view sanctification, then, also as a gift. When someone suggests that the gift of salvation means that we could "keep right on a-sinnin'," we say with the Apostle Paul, What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:1-4). We are glad to be moving towards living that "new life" because the life of sin, though it seems pleasurable sometimes, is really a life of enslavement. As Paul says later in Romans 6: For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

As Jeff or any other devout Christian can tell you, living a Godly life -- not just talking the talk, but walking the walk -- is hard work, especially in this day and age. That's not what I call "free."

And this is certainly true. But we don't struggle to walk the walk to earn God's favor. We do it as God empowers and transforms us to become more like Jesus. This, too, is a gift.

I would never have Tagged you as a introvert. (shakes head) Never.

I love it when you do posts like this. :D Makes me feel like a reading a novel or something.

Hmm, Well no big itellectual thoughts tonight. :D Sorry Physics has gone and melted my brain.

Jeff
"I look at life as if I am a traveler, who was hungry, and found free bread ... and I want to tell as many other hungry travelers where the bread is. My motivation is joy. I don't get anything out of the deal. I am not selling the bread, for it is not mine to sell."

But, staying with that analogy, to a non-evangelical, what you are offering does not look like bread. And you aren't letting us taste it -- you are just telling us how it wonderful it tastes. Its not as convincing.

Well, that might explain the disproportionate number of my Christian friends who have a woodworking hobby... ;)

And one thing I'm deeply grateful for is that I won't be judged on my carpentry skills, which are, uh, well, I don't have any.

To me (and to most, at least when talking outside of an explicitly Christian context), "free gift" means "no strings attached." But the promise of salvation definitely has strings attached. That's all I'm saying.

Ok, I hear what you're saying. I still think much of the confusion stems from misunderstanding the nature of the gift. The gift isn't only "I will rescue you from hell in the hereafter." The gift is, "I will give you a whole new life, the life you were meant to have."

It's kind of like if you were very ill with cancer and needed major surgery to remove a tumor. A surgeon hears about your need, seeks you out, and tells you, "I will perform the surgery for you." You say, "I can't afford it." The surgeon says, "it's free -- my gift to you, no strings attached." Would you say there are in fact strings attached to the surgeon's gift because you have to let him open you up and clean out the cancer? It seems to me that the surgeon's gift is still in every sense a "gift," even though it requires you to trust yourself fully to the surgeon. If you then say to the surgeon, "I'm not letting you cut me open; you can't remove any of the tumor," it isn't that you've failed to satisfy some condition on the gift -- you've refused the gift. The gift of salvation is similar in many ways.

And -- I don't know about you guys, but I vote against the annoying verification thingy that just popped onto the commenting system here!

"But, staying with that analogy, to a non-evangelical, what you are offering does not look like bread. And you aren't letting us taste it -- you are just telling us how it wonderful it tastes. Its not as convincing."

Kevin

I am not offering anyone anything. Christ is the only one who is making an offer. I am telling them what Christ is offering them.

And what do you think Christ is offering that you would claim it does not look like bread to a hungry traveler?

Kevin:

I think I am following you. It sounds like you are *not* denying that Christ is making the greatest offer ever made in history (a full pardon, offered freely, to those who choose to receive the full pardon by exercising trust). You agree that he is (it sounds like).

Your beef is that it is not *obvious* that Christ is making this offer, because one human (me) is telling another human about the offer.

Correct me if I misunderstood you, but I am going to assume that I understand your concern.

If Christianity merely boiled down to believing 10 things (I made up the number 10, just go with it), and the job of the Christian is to convince others to believe 10 things, then I would be inclined to agree with you.

Christianity would then be an exercise in persuasion (at best) or manipulation (at worst).

Once you read the New Testament, you discover that this idea of getting others to believe things is a straw man view of Christianity. Christianity is not about persuasion techniques, spreading beliefs or brain washing.

Here is what you will find.

Christianity is about the reality of our true condition, about how God has dealt with it, and what we can do in light of what God has done.

I am told to go and tell. I am not commanded to convince and convert. In fact, it is quite clear that God is the one who authenticates the message.

My job is simply to be open and honest, not manipulative, about the reality of who Jesus Christ is, and what he has done in my life. Not only that, but as you eloquently pointed out, I need to put into practice what Christ has asked of me in terms of how I live and treat others. This is a "both and" situation. Words (bearing witness) and actions (imitating Christ and obeying his commands).

Here is the kicker.

The Holy Spirit is the one who changes the heart of the hearer in a process that theologians call regeneration. The Holy Spirit uses the words of ordinary people and drives home the truth of them into the heart of the hearer.

If someone rejects the offer of Christ, he is not rejecting me. He is rejecting Christ. If he accepts Christ's offer, as some have done when I have told them about it, then it was not my convincing words or logic that did it -- it was the work of the Holy Spirit.

Finally, I am asked to give reasons for the hope that I have. I am more than willing and happy to do so. For some, my reasons have proved helpful. For others, my reasons have not. Each person is very different in that regard. I cannot control the outcome. That is totally in God's hands. All I can do is obey and do what Christ has asked me to do.

Arrgh

Sorry about the double post. I am not sure what I am messing up to make that happen.

Jeff

You are missing the point, I think, or I am not aking it well enough. As far as I am concerned, you are not obeying the Lord. The legalistic, "what is the meaning of is" insistance that you must use words all the time is not doing a thing to bring real change to people's lives, at least in most cases. And that, not the physical act of speaking, is the meanng of the Lord's command.

In this specific case, the story reads as if you went to the party looking for people to convert, and then launched into what very much appears to be a sales pitch. That is not an effectiv means of carrying out the command to spread the word.

In general, no one is saying you shouldn;t talk about it -- only that by begining the process by talkign about Christ, you are not doing all you can to bring people to Christ in the most effective manner possible. And that, in the end, is what should be important.

Jeff

I have no doubt your intentions are good and sincere. I have no doubt that you think you are doing things the right way. All I am tryign to get across is that form the standpoint ofd someone who is not an evangelical, your methods are not convincing, that's all. I am sorry if I implied something else.