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May 10, 2005

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Why do you say our thoughts are determined by fixed laws? The brain is governed by physical processes at a sub-atomic level, and at that level we see indeterminism everywhere. Such indeterminism might aggregate up to consistency (which is why all the vibrating electrons in your arm still form a solid with predictable movement), but it is at least possible that the brain doesn't aggregate things up to that level.

Furthermore, the network effects we have in effect in the brain are so huge that we don't know if they're deterministic or not. There are so many permutations that everything could be fixed, yet still be indeterminate in practice; it would be impossible to gain sufficient knowledge of the state of the system to determine a future state of the system, even if we were able to control all inputs to that syste, (a big if on a global scale).

Finally, to be logically consistent you can't state that the idea is self-refuting; if 'all' thoughts are is a collection of neural firing, then I could argue that they are an ultimate reflection of truth. No perception or worldview or distortion is applicable; they merely respond to the truth, i.e. that which is.

Paul,

I am not following your argument. If everything reduces to physical laws (chemistry, electricity, physics), then our minds reduce to it as well (if you are a physicalist). Sure, it may be complicated. But, complexity <> indeterminancy.

If you are a physicalist, you have no where else to go to explain how the mind works but to matter itself, and the physical laws which govern matter.

Now, it may be that you are arguing for something other than matter -- vitalism, life-force, soul or whatever. But based on your prior comments, I don't think you want to go there.

Therefore, my argument stands. If you are a physicalist, the reason you believe physicalism is because of the physical laws governing the matter in your brain -- not because physicalism is true.

Complexity doesn't equal indeterminacy, although it can be sufficiently complex that we couldn't tell the difference. But assuming for a moment we need something more than that, we're talking about operations that potentially occur at a sub-atomic level, where things appear to be indeterminate. So purely relying on a physical mechanism we can get to a level of indeterminate behavior that could generate what we recognize as the human mind (I think this is the argument that Roger Penrose makes, and has been criticized for; I'm looking forward to doing some reading on that subject).

So it might be so complex that it would give the appearance of indeterminacy, or it might actually be indeterminate. Either way there's an argument to be made that it's rooted in the physical, and therefore is the only thing that *does* reflect the truth. I'm not so sure about that - more thinking required.

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