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« Here I Am To Worship | Main | PIGFEST! »

March 22, 2006

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I used that book very briefly for a paper I wrote analyzing the Emerging Church last semester. I found the amount of references to books, pastors and churches to be dizzying...but maybe I should give it a read this summer.

The basis of the research was interviews with many who are participating in the emerging church movement. That is a strength, because it gives a broad look at a movement; but as you point out, it is a weakness because the number of references is dizzying.

I would be interested in reading your paper -- mind sending it along?

I'll give the paper a read again and see if it would be something worth passing on. I found it extremely difficult to write because the movement is so new and undefined. Also, I only came upon Bolger's book when I was close to finishing my paper...

What would it look like if Jesus were here?

Maybe the server wouldn't crash so much!! ;)

Everything you quoted above is pretty vague, though. Do they go into more specific issues - like software piracy, gossip, use of the Internet during down time...? (oops, better get back to looking busy)

The question becomes, then, how do you live peacefully with those who don't share your worldview? If you try to push Christianity onto all aspects of your life, there are going to be others you encounter who don't share your beliefs (even other Christians), and you have problems. This post seems to disallow the idea of "agreeing to disagree." Not to mention religious freedom -- forget about that. All those other One True Religions are wrong!

Cynical? Maybe. But I just don't see how you can have a civil society without either compartmentalizing religion to a certain extent, or converting or eliminating those who don't share your beliefs.

This isn't to say that you should not or cannot allow religion to influence all aspects of your life -- you should. And that's what I think you're misunderstanding about this "divide." It's entirely possible to live by your principles without forcing others to do so as well, or cramming your beliefs down the throats of others. People do it all the time, despite your protestatings that it "Does. Not. Work."

Ya know, that first entry sounds like a Jesuit I knew as a kid. it is almost exactly what he told us the Doctrine of Works required from us. Is that first writer Catholic or an ex-Catholic?

Blah. protestatings should be "protestations." Kevin's rubbing off on me. :)

"Is that first writer Catholic or an ex-Catholic?"

I assume you mean Ryan Bolger. I just met him a week ago, but I did not ask him his background. He is not a Catholic now -- he teaches at a Protestant seminary and attends a Presbyterian church. But he may be an ex-Catholic ... not really sure.

Jeff, I'm lovin this relationship you're striking up with Bolger. Now you see why a guy like me is attracted to some of the stuff in this movement!

Tom:

Cramming it down people's throats? Man, you are totally missing what's being said here. This is talking about living the ethic of Jesus every day -- standing up for the poor and marginalized, seeking justice, doing acts of mercy, stuff like that. Why on earth would even the most ardent liberal oppose that?

Kevin:

I think you're probably missing it too. Maybe the Jesuit you're referring to had some good things to say? One of the hallmarks of the "emerging Church" movement is to minimize denominational and sectarian divides as much as possible. But I don't think Bolger is talking about earning your place at the table with God. The idea is that those who claim to know and follow Jesus should live like it. All Christians of every stripe agree on that at least in principle.

Joel,

I have had two other readers privately email me and request to read your paper. There are three of us now ... and the numbers are growing. Please, please, please send it along. We all want to read it.

We won't grade it, I promise. :) We want to learn from your research. I won't post anything on this blog without your express written permission. Cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye.

"Now you see why a guy like me is attracted to some of the stuff in this movement!"

Absolutely, and with good reason. The core values of the EC should be the core values of the church (capital C church).

"Cramming it down people's throats? Man, you are totally missing what's being said here. This is talking about living the ethic of Jesus every day -- standing up for the poor and marginalized, seeking justice, doing acts of mercy, stuff like that. Why on earth would even the most ardent liberal oppose that?"

I was thinking the same thing as David. Tom, you have a caricature of Christians that you have yet to let go of. Have David and I tried to force our beliefs on you?

We agree with some things you say, and disagree with other things you say, and tell you why (ideally with gentleness and respect). Is that forcing our beliefs?

I can't help but feel that you still have this idea that Christianity is about convincing non-Christians to adopt Christian beliefs.

If that is what you have reduced Christianity to, then it is no wonder you have such a low opinion of Christians.

Christianity is far more than you have reduced it to. It is way of living and thinking and acting stemming from a heart overflowing with gratitude over the grace that has been showered on us. It starts with a faith based relationship with Christ made possible by his finished work on the cross, but it is transformational from there. All things are made new -- one's thinking, one's attitude, and one's behavior toward others. That must be lived out, not stowed away in a private compartment.

David and Jeff:

Yeah, Kevin pointed out to me yesterday that I brought my biases to the party, and was a little (a lot?) heavy-handed. Remember, I blog politically first, and when I see people decrying the "secular / sacred" divide, it's usually a gateway to railing against church / state separation (which, in my opinion, ultimately benefits the religious more than the non-religious). So I allowed that expectation to color my views.

In my defense, I did point out that it's entirely possible to live a Christian ethic without being overbearing or disrespectful toward those of other faiths.

But yeah, I totally jumped the gun. :)

I do feel the need to clarify a couple of things, however:
I can't help but feel that you still have this idea that Christianity is about convincing non-Christians to adopt Christian beliefs.
I don't feel that this is all it's about, but I do think that's a big part of it. Your conversations with Jim (which you blogged a few months ago) served only to reinforce that perception.
If that is what you have reduced Christianity to, then it is no wonder you have such a low opinion of Christians.
While I can see where you might get this impression, I do not have a low opinion of Christians! If I did, I wouldn't be married to one, I wouldn't have been married by a Christian minister, I wouldn't have recommended my wife's church, and I wouldn't count you and David among my friends!

I do have a low opinion of certain things that certain types of Christians do, but that's an entirely different can of worms. Most of those things involve what I perceive as hypocrisy, and I can think of at least one other guy who had a low opinion of that sort of thing without having a low opinion of Christians in general. :)

All that said, once I remove the political lens, and re-read your post in the context of "Sunday-only" Christians, I can see your point, and how my rant was out of place.

David:
standing up for the poor and marginalized, seeking justice, doing acts of mercy, stuff like that.
I thought we were supposed to let the Invisible Hand of the Market(tm) take care of that sort of stuff!

*ducks* I kid, of course. :)

" The idea is that those who claim to know and follow Jesus should live like it. All Christians of every stripe agree on that at least in principle."

Absolutely -- its just that Catholics have the extra weight of it being a requirment for salvation behind it, and Bolger's comments sounded so much like what I have heard from Jesuits that I was struck by it. Frnakly, its not the kind of thing I hear a lot of or in such clear non-sex related social terms from prominent Protestant writers/thinkers. His educational/religious background would be interesting, I think.

And whether he means to or not, when he talks like that, he definetly comes across to Cahtolic slike he is talking about the doctrine of works.

Please, please, please send it along.

Alright, alright...

"Alright, alright...

LOL. I figured if I asked nicely, it might work. :)

I will forward it to the other readers when I get it.

Thx!

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