Scientists are to try to explain this phenomenon. Out of body experiences are most commonly associated with near death experiences (NDEs).
(photo courtesy of AP)
I have done a little reading on NDEs. NDEs are more common than you think. Estimates typically run around five percent of the population experiencing some form of NDE. There are documented cases of NDE survivors who have accurately observed or heard things even in the absence of brain waves. How exactly does one hear without a brain? Or see without using your eyeballs?
This is obviously an argument against scientific naturalism. No wonder scientists are trying to explain it (or should I say, explain it away?). It is not too hard to predict what conclusions will be reached by these scientists. They will argue that a brain with no blood flow and activity can still function. Why? Because you need your brain to hear and see ... that's why. In otherwords, a tautology.
Are you arguing that you don't need your brain to hear and see?
Posted by: Paul | August 24, 2007 at 17:21
Of course we don't need a brain to hear and see.
God is able to see just fine without eyeballs or a brain. Angels can see quite well without eyeballs, optic nerves or brains.
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 24, 2007 at 19:08
"There are documented cases of NDE survivors who have accurately observed or heard things even in the absence of brain waves."
There are also documented cases of people being taken up by little green men. I'd have to see these documented cases for myself before assuming their veracity. In my opinion, there is no way anyone can see or hear without the brain.
You seem to to think of scientists as the enemy, like so many Christians do these days.
Posted by: Rob Ryan | August 25, 2007 at 12:04
Of course we don't need a brain to hear and see.
God is able to see just fine without eyeballs or a brain. Angels can see quite well without eyeballs, optic nerves or brains.
That God and Angels are able to see and hear just fine without eyeballs and a brain is not evidence that we can do the same. We are neither God nor Angels.
By your logic, I won't need a compass next time I go hiking in the woods. After all, birds can navigate via the earth's magnetic field without using a compass.
God created humans as living bodies and when we are resurrected, we will be living bodies. In the same way, Jesus was resurrected as a living body, and he is still a living body. Is there any scriptural support for the idea that humans can exist as disembodied spirits like Angels?
I'm skeptical about claims that someone has recovered after displaying no brain activity. Are there any links to the primary medical literature?
Posted by: Nick | August 27, 2007 at 09:18
re: "You seem to to think of scientists as the enemy, like so many Christians do these days."
There is only one enemy ... the great deceiver.
Scientists are not the enemy ... they are not even the problem.
The problem is scientism ... a false belief that matter is all there is and all we can know is what our five senses tell us.
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 27, 2007 at 12:55
Nick,
Do you believe the soul is a material thing?
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 27, 2007 at 12:59
I believe the soul is a created thing. I don't know whether it is material or not, and I doubt any other human, with one obvious exception, knows either. I don't think it really matters.
Even if we agree that the soul is nonmaterial, that still doesn't tell us whether humans are capable of thinking and perceiving without a brain. If the soul is nonmaterial, then humans are body and soul--the complete package--not a soul that sometimes happens to be riding in a body.
I don't smell inappropriate scientism in attempts to explain out-of-body experiences via neurology. As a Christian, I believe that many of the spiritual claims of nonchristians are false, and it would not surprise me if they have mundane explanations. It also would not surprise me if some phenomena that are claimed by Christians to be spiritual actually have neurological or pharmacological explanations -- whether that makes them true or false is a separate matter. In any event, out-of-body experiences (e.g. floating above the operating table) don't have much relevance to Christianity, IMO.
Posted by: Nick | August 27, 2007 at 14:04
I also don't know how much the concepts of "mind" and "soul" overlap. My thoughts and perceptions constitute my mind, so if mind and soul are not synonymous, the critical issue is whether a human mind can exist without a body, not the status of the soul.
It's clear that modifications to the brain can create and alter mind states in a predictable manner, but I don't know exactly how the mind relates to the brain: Is it a construct of the brain, separate from but dependent on the brain, or independent of the brain? Only the first possibility is wholly materialistic, but only the third would permit thought without a functioning brain. The middle is a non-materialistic viewpoint that still rejects thought in the absence of a brain.
Posted by: Nick | August 27, 2007 at 14:47
Nick,
Volumes have been written on the defense of the reality of the soul and its compatibility with Christianity and defense from scripture.
While I think it would be profoundly difficult for a Christian to square a view with scripture that the soul is actually a lobe in the brain, it does not prove fatal to Christianity to hold such a view.
What is fatal, however, is the reality of an immaterial soul to scientism. True?
How can the senses provide any information to the brain when the brain is dead?
So, NDEs present an interesting case study from that perspective. If patients with no brain waves are seeing, hearing and knowing things ... not just floating above the table, but actually listening in on conversations and observing things through out the building ... then one has a difficult time defending the core presuppositions of scientism.
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 28, 2007 at 08:37
Volumes have been written on the defense of the reality of the soul and its compatibility with Christianity and defense from scripture.
The reality of the soul is a different issue than the nature of the soul, and it is entirely separate from the question of whether human souls ever float around without bodies.
While I think it would be profoundly difficult for a Christian to square a view with scripture that the soul is actually a lobe in the brain, it does not prove fatal to Christianity to hold such a view.
That isn't what I suggested--at least, not what I meant to suggest. I suggested that perhaps we are making an error by attempting to subdivide humans into independent bodies and souls. I don't believe that the body is just a meat suit for a soul. How about you?
You view seems to be that the soul is the conscious part of you, the real you. That has interesting implications. To a dramatic extent your thoughts and personality are driven by your body, and not just your brain. Hormones produced elsewhere affect emotion, and emotion strongly influences memory formation and your reactions in different situations. How different would your personality be without a body? Would you be you in any meaningful sense?
What is fatal, however, is the reality of an immaterial soul to scientism. True?
It would be fatal to a crude materialism, yes. So would belief in God and Angels, regardless of what we think about the nature of humanity.
How can the senses provide any information to the brain when the brain is dead?
That's the key question, and I don't think it has been established that they do. From a theological point of view, if the person is dead, then why is his soul floating around observing things in the world? If he was dead, why did he then recover? Whatever happended to "...it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment..."
I did a brief trawl through Medline and found numerous articles referring to NDEs in cases of cardiac arrest. I also found several articles referring to NDE's when the patient wasn't actually dying but thought that he was. There were a couple of articles referring to altered brain patterns in people who had experienced NDEs, but I didn't find references to NDEs in patients who recovered after displaying no brain function.
That was an honest question in my first response. I would like to know the citations for the claim about people who had no brain function. It must been observed by medical professionals, because it's not something that can be known without sophisticated equipment and interpretation.
Posted by: Nick | August 28, 2007 at 09:24
Sorry, hit "post" two quickly.
Specifically, what I am interested in are citations for your claims that patients have a) displayed no brain activity whatsoever during an NDE, and b) observed and overheard events outside the room in which the persons body is located. Your argument that NDE has no scientific explanation hinges on those claims, and they are dramatically different than the majority of medical descriptions of NDEs. Typical NDEs seem to involve cardiac arrest, not brain death, and observation of events in the room, not outside it.
Posted by: Nick | August 28, 2007 at 09:45
Nick,
You are asking cool questions. The nature of the soul discussions are fun and I wish I had more time to drill into it. I have the Rae and Moreland book dedicated to that topic (Body & Soul, IVP).
I have a book called Beyond Death explores NDEs in depth. The different types of death are qualified there ... including brain death. The majority of NDEs are "after the heart stops" kinds ... but there are documented cases of "after the brain stops" kinds of death too.
The largest sample of "after brain stops" cases was collected by a cardiologist by the name of Fred Schoonmaker. He documented 55 flat EEG cases which lasted from 30 minutes to 3 hours.
The citations include, John Audette, "Denver Cardiologist Discloses Findings After 18 Years of Near-Death Research," Anabiosis, vol. 1 (1979), pp.1-2; Dina Ingber, "Visions of An Afterlife," Science Digest, vol. 89, no. 1(Jan.-Feb. 1981), pp.94-97, 142; and a personal interview conducted with Dr. Schoonmaker conducted by Dr. Habermas, 1 June 1982.
One specific case noted in the book was as follows. A woman who had both a flat EEG reading and no vital signs had been declard dead. But she spontaneously revived about three and one-half hours later. In fact, she regained consciousness and lifted the sheet off of her face as she was being taken to the morgue by an orderly. Then she reported that she had floated over her body during the resuscitation attempts. She precisely described not only the procedures used in her attempted rescue, but also the number of persons who came into the hospital room, what they said (she even repeated a joke told to relieve the tension), and perhaps most interestingly, she desribed the designs on the doctors' ties. All of these claims were carefully checked with the medical records and the doctors present. It was determined that her entire description was correct, even though the EEG reading had been flat during the entire time.
This particular case was reported by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and appeared in the Vestibule and a number of other sources including Newsweek (in 1976).
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 28, 2007 at 13:03
Nick, in 1st Samuel 28, when Saul consults the witch of Endor to call up the spirit of Samuel, he is described as being a spirit rising up from the ground. So I think that may be your scriptural evidence that a human spirit can exist apart from the body.
Posted by: Matt | August 28, 2007 at 15:11
Matt,
How sure are we that the witch called up Samuel and not some demonic impersonation? It certainly would have unpleasant implications if the dead spirit of a righteous prophet is just lurking underground and can be ordered around by a witch at the request of a deluded King. Are the dead in Christ subject to the same manipulation?
Mr. Dawntreader,
Thanks for the references. I'll look them up in my copious free time (hah!). The scenario you report in detail is intriguing, but raises several questions. If the woman had a flat EEG for the entire three hours, why were the doctors attempting to resuscitate her? If she initially had an active EEG (which would encourage resuscitation attempts) but was later declared brain dead, how sure are we that the events she observed occurred during the period of flat EEG and not before. It sounds as though this is a case of overhearing events in the same room, so it would be very important to ascertain exactly when events occurred relative to the period of flat EEG. I found an account of the famous case of Pam Reynolds which suggests that the things she observed during her NDE occurred before the time that she had a flat EEG.
The stereotyped descriptions of NDEs are somewhat suspicious, IMO. Why do these detached souls always seem to float above their body? I recall hearing of a physician who is doing an experiment to investigate this aspect of NDE. He has posted some large messages on high shelves that are not visible to people on the ground. He wants to know if any "floaters" report being able to read the messages.
There are all sorts of interesting theological issues associated with NDE. Do people who are non-Christians report the same peaceful and happy NDEs as Christians? Do the people who meet dead friends and relatives only meet the Christian ones? What are the implications for the Christian doctrines of judgement and damnation if NDEs are true? If NDE is incompatible with Christian beliefs, then a Christian should presumably join with the materialists in rejecting the veracity of NDE accounts.
Posted by: Nick | August 29, 2007 at 09:06
Beyond Death wrestles with many of the questions you raise.
http://www.gnpcb.org/product/0891079998
If true, these NDEs make a compelling case for substance dualism. They would also suggest that humans don't require brains, optical nerves and eyeballs to see ... they may be able to see other ways.
Be that as it may, methodological naturalism is equipped to provide very limited answers to the NDE phenomena ... regardless of which way the evidence may lead.
Posted by: Mr. Dawntreader | August 29, 2007 at 19:15
Nick, the bible refers to the spirit called up as Samuel, if the bible is God breathed wouldn't God know if it was really Samuel or not? Read the passage yourself and decide whether it was really Samuel or if it was a demon. But every thing the spirit of Samuel said was in line with what he would have said when he was alive.
As for your other questions, the bible doesn't address them so I can't really give you answers. Perhaps God allowed Samuel to be called up?
Posted by: Matt | August 30, 2007 at 08:50
Hi Matt,
It's certainly an interesting passage, and there seem to be scholars on both sides of the issue,all the way back to the early church fathers. I think I lean towards the "demonic impersonation" interpretation for a variety of reasons:
a) The Old Testament condemns witchcraft and necromancy, so it is hard to believe that God would intervene to assist a sin. I suppose it is conceivable, but the passage gives no indication that is what happened. It simply says that the witch summoned him up.
b) Only the witch refers to the apparition as a spirit, and commentators indicate that an alternative translation is "gods" (plural). We might reasonably expect a necromancer to refer to demons as "gods," particularly if she is a pagan.
c) The woman seems surprised to see what she perceives as Samuel, but that could be charlatan's surprise that anything has come, not surprise that it is actually Samuel. Saul apparently doesn't see the apparition, so we might take his certaintly that it is Samuel with a grain of salt. Does he really know or is the Bible reporting what he thinks he knows (see D). The apparition correctly predicts Saul's death, but given that Saul apparently didn't repent and died by suicide, the apparition's claim that "tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" could perhaps be truly spoken by a demon.
d) When the Bible calls the apparition Samuel, I think it is possible that the Bible is accurately reporting the false impressions of Saul and the Witch. The Bible is God breathed and reliable, but not everything said by people in the bible is reliable. If a person is mistaken or lies, the Bible accurately reports the falsehood. The style of much of the Bible is such that a passage may not always include commentary clarifying what statements are mistakes.
E) (this is somewhat circular) I still think it is highly significant that Christianity from the early creeds onward emphasizes resurrection of the body, including the example of Christ's bodily resurrection, and some early and recurring heresies emphasize the separation of soul and body. That makes me suspicious of the passage in I Samuel and of accounts of astral projection or free floating souls.
However, the long history of disagreement over the passage means that there's probably no definitive answer.
Posted by: Nick | August 30, 2007 at 11:44
I think God gives them special visions that they just picture, like someone is the star in a play that was recited over and over, so, their body is there but, their mind is watching a recording of the play... so they fall into a really, really, really, really, really deep coma and dream about what is really happning.
Posted by: Wario clone 1 | September 04, 2007 at 17:17
The above article mistakenly described the experiences produced by the research teams as out-of-body experiences. The journal Science and Science News (AAAS) describe that “this week's issue of Science, two teams of cognitive neuroscientists independently report methods for inducing elements of an out-of-body experience in healthy volunteers. “ The operating word is elements. The experiences reported by the volunteers have 3 elements of some out-of-body experiences but they were not in fact out-of-body experiences – a distinct state of consciousness and neurophysiology from the normal waking state.
The OBE is characterized by a visceral feeling of being embodied in a more subtle body away from the physical body itself, often with exotic "energetic," "take-off" and "re-interiorization" sensations. In the virtual reality experiment volunteers did not feel they were no longer present in their body and did not report these other characteristics of the OBE (significantly more numerous than the 3 selected by the researchers).
In an OBE, the individual is not always looking back at the physical body at a few feet of distance (although this can occur in some cases). OBE’s are not always a visual phenomena either, as there are OBE’s without sight and blind people may have OBE's. The majority of OBE’s also occur mainly when the eyes are closed and when the body is in a more vegetative state with brain wave patterns distinct from even lucid dreaming -- let alone the normal waking state of the volunteers.
Nelson Abreu
International Academy of Consciousness
Miami, United States
Posted by: patagao | September 21, 2007 at 13:59